Last year, a writing friend of mine, Michele Hollow, introduced me to the hosts of the Sheela Na Gig podcast, Missy Gibson and April Grossinger.[1] She’d enjoyed being on the podcast and thought Sigrid Schultz and I would be a good fit for their concept. They agreed. The rest is, ahem, history.

Missy Gibson, a 30+-year L.A. transplant from Detroit, Michigan, is a singer-songwriter, touring musician, voice teacher, and podcast journalist. She is also a full-time mom of two kids, a personal stylist, and a wardrobe artist. Missy’s passion for women’s history has led her to host many eye–opening and laugh-out-loud historical trivia parties.[2] One of her favorite prizes to give is a mini-Poo Pourri—an excellent product (invented by a rad woman) that hides nasty bathroom smells. Missy is excited to now share her “parties” with a larger audience through the award-winning Sheela Na Gig podcast!

April Grossinger, originally from Queens, New York, is a career consultant and podcast journalist. She has spent much of her career helping women (and men) navigate career advancement, including career strategy, salary coaching, resume writing, and interview prep. She was the former Associate Director of Women at Work, a nonprofit dedicated to helping women bridge the pay gap. She is also a proud mother of two young adults and a very spoiled chihuahua named Ellie.

Take it away, ladies!

How do you choose the topics for your episodes? 

First, it is important to acknowledge that, sadly, like a crime podcast, we are confident we’ll never run out of admirable women (whom we call “our Sheelas”) who have failed to get adequate recognition in history. Generally, in each episode, we take turns presenting a “Sheela”, surprising each other and our listeners with each new episode.

We both have several ways of identifying our Sheelas. Sometimes we know, or at least we’ve heard something about an unacknowledged woman, and then we dig deeper to discover her brilliance. Sometimes we cover women who have been acknowledged, but we believe their story can be told better or more accurately. And often, our listeners, friends, acquaintances, and relatives recommend someone.

Recently, Missy was introduced to a woman named Donaldina. When inquiring about her unusual name, Missy discovered her acquaintance was named after the heroine, Donaldina Cameron. When Missy went down the Donaldina Cameron “rabbit hole,” she found a rich network of new and astonishing Sheelas.

We also research obscure women online and identify Sheelas by reviewing historical dates and periods. For example, many World War II heroines remain largely unknown. They range from groundbreaking scientists to guerrilla-warfare resistance fighters. We’ve found brief references to Sheelas in advertisements, social media posts, books, and online magazine articles, too. Finding our “Sheelas” has become a favorite hunt for both of us. We each maintain lists of our many prospects, and bringing them to life has become a labor of love for us both.

When did you first become interested in women’s history? 

Missy has always been a feminist history buff and often shared historical tidbits or played feminist trivia at the start of women’s networking events and during parties and other social gatherings that April attended. April has always been a women’s advocate in the workplace. As a career counselor, particularly at a women’s career center in the 1990’s, she conducted extensive advocacy on issues related to equal pay and occupational segregation. Upon hearing Missy’s “Women in History,” moments, she was riveted.

When we decided to launch a podcast together, Missy suggested women in history who were not sufficiently recognized, and we never looked back! Our shared passion for bringing women’s achievements to light is an honor we both savor every week. We like to say, “We’re fighting the fight & shining the light!”

What sparked that interest?

Missy first became interested in women’s history in 3rd grade when her teacher assigned a report on a historical figure.  While most girls in her class chose Betsy Ross and Amelia Earhart, Missy went to her school library and found a book about Nellie Bly. She was enthralled by this bold investigative journalist, who exposed asylums by pretending she was crazy to get herself committed. Missy loved that she dressed like a man to nab a good story, made it around the world in less than 80 days, and even had a pet monkey on her shoulder! From that moment forward, she found herself delving into women she had never heard of before to learn more.

This was in the 1970s, when Missy’s homemaker mother experienced a renaissance as women’s liberation emerged. She began burning her bras, she separated from Missy’s father, and turned to books like “The Women’s Room” and to powerful women like Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan. At the time, Missy wasn’t sure what gender equity, reproductive rights, and equal opportunities all meant, but it felt very important and empowering to her 8-year-old self.

At the same time, April’s mother was working as a secretary throughout her childhood. Although April watched her mother sit at a typewriter and answer telephones, she also witnessed her mother sitting in the same room as her business owner and real estate tycoon boss. April’s mother helped her boss structure business deals and navigate negotiations, signaling to him as she “read the room,” advising him on which negotiation tactic to use. While April’s mother was a well-paid “Executive Secretary,” she still served coffee to men and played a subservient role. Her mother often complained that her gender kept her from advancing to her rightful place at the executive table. As a result, April dedicated much of her career to helping women advance and increase their earnings potential. She is deeply aware of how recent history has confined Rosie the Riveter and how long and hard women have had to fight for equal pay and executive positions in the workplace. When April read “The Women’s Room” in college, it became a life and career-altering experience.

Why did you name your podcast Sheela Na Gig?

Sheela Na Gigs are figurative carvings of naked, haggard women with exaggeratedly large vulvas. They were found on churches, cathedrals, castles, and other European buildings from the 11th to the 16th centuries, particularly in Ireland, Great Britain, France, and Spain. Many have been destroyed, but some remain on building facades to date.

An early interpretation of these carvings was that they were grotesque images representing evil and the embodiment of lust and sin. More recently, however, researchers have leaned toward the idea that they are pre-Christian folk goddesses representing female empowerment, fertility, and protection. We named our podcast from this latter interpretation. Since the women we showcase are largely “hidden” in history, we like the idea of setting these women free, “What once was hidden now set free, unabashed in her glory,” as our podcast theme song goes. Just like those exaggerated, open vulvas, we want to help our Sheelas stand out, no longer hidden, but rather bold and beautiful!

A question from Missy and April for Pamela: While researching women in history, we encounter remarkable, groundbreaking women whose boldness and audacity are not always in service to what might be considered “heroic” or “good.” An example might be Auntie Suzy, a midwife who murdered abusive husbands (whether or not their wives wanted the guys eliminated). We often debate whether to feature such controversial women on our podcast. We wonder if you also experience such dilemmas.   If so, how do you grapple with that? If not, do you have any advice for us?

This was a central issue for me when I was writing Women Warriors.  I started out with an image of heroic women, but I quickly realized that was too limiting.  I finally decided to tell stories without regard to a woman’s perceived morality. Many of the women I wrote about were maligned as witches or viragoes, as sexually voracious, as sexually frigid, or as just plain crazy by the men who fought against them—and occasionally by the men who fought alongside them.  Some of them are considered  both national heroines and arch-villains depending on which side of the battlefield the person writing about them stood on. Examining how their stories were told, and the biases of the sources became an important element of my larger story:  just because a contemporary engaged in a little trash-talking about a woman didn’t make it true.

Ultimately I believe it comes down to the purpose of the work. There is a long tradition of collective biographies of notable women that emphasize the heroic aspects of individual women’s stories. And that is a perfect valid model. The question to ask yourselves is Auntie Suzy, or any other controversial woman you want to consider, a Sheela by your own definition.

[1] Fair warning to podcast hosts: writers trade your names and contact information with wild abandon, assuming you’re good at what you do.
[2] An idea I am tempted to steal.

***

Want to learn more about MIssy, April, and Sheela Na Gig?

Visit their website

Listen to the podcast

Follow them on Instagram

***

Tomorrow will be business as usual here on the Margins with a blog post from me. Then we’ll be back on Monday with three questions and a answer from historian Lorissa Rinehart