Talking About Women’s History: Three Questions (or Four, or six–depending on how you count) and an Answer with Katie Nelson and Olivia Meikle
If you’ve been hanging out here on the Margins for a while, you’ve probably read an earlier interview with women’s history co-conspirators Katie Nelson and Olivia Meikle, a pair of sisters who just keep finding new ways to explore women’s history and take the rest of us along with them. They are the hosts of the What’s Her Name podcast and co-authors of The Book of Sisters. (Rumor has it that they have a couple of new books in the works: A Stinky History of Toilets (coming soon) and A History of the World in 70 Lost Women.
Katie Nelson has a PhD in History from the University of Warwick and taught World History, Study Abroad, and The Meaning of Life at Weber State University for a decade. After diving into local history as Executive Director of the Weber County Heritage Foundation, she now writes books, leads tours, and podcasts full-time. Katie loves trying ALL the foods, exploring life’s big questions, and curating travel adventures for curious folks.
Olivia Meikle teaches Women’s & Gender Studies at Naropa University. She’s also the author of Around the World in 80 Diapers, a website empowering parents to travel internationally with their kids. She has an MA in English Literature and Women’s & Gender Studies from the University of Colorado, Boulder.
Photo credit Marc Nelson
It seems like every year you add a new and exciting way to explore fascinating women who have been left out of the historical narrative. Women’s history tours are the latest addition to the What’s Her Name empire. What inspired you to take this new step in women’s history?
Katie: I taught Study Abroad at Weber State University for a decade, guiding students across Europe. It was one of the great privileges of my life to witness the transformative power of educational travel through my students, year after year. I started recording podcast interviews on the fly while I was abroad; I was just encountering so many interesting stories! After more and more listeners kept saying things like “one day I want to visit the place where you recorded that episode…”, the next step was clear. We needed to create a new kind of study abroad, for curious grown ups. Our tours are built around episodes we’ve recorded, and rooted in authentic human connection (“don’t be hurry up”). We really get a self-selecting group of adventurers. If I say, “would you like to travel to obscure places no one knows about, to learn about women no one’s ever heard of?” The lovely, wonderful people who answer heck yes! are our people.
Once you’ve chosen the main destination, say Mexico, is it hard to find women-centric places to include on the tour?
Katie: Not at all, but I think it’s because we’ve learned where and how to look…i.e., not in the usual guidebooks, and not in the usual destinations. It turns out, the trickiest thing is trying to convey to hotels, drivers, and other guide-types that no, in fact, we do NOT want an itinerary that’s exactly like all the other commercial tours. Yes, we really do want to take a group to this obscure spot no one else cares about. We don’t fit any tourist stereotypes. Tourism professionals don’t know what to do with us. Which is how I like it! We have to be our own travel agents.
Olivia: Adding on to Katie’s answer: That’s actually one of my favorite things about our tours! There’s something magical about seeing all these ‘jaded, tourist-weary travel professionals’ we’re working with – drivers, site guides, hotel staff, etc – go from baffled, to amused, to intrigued, to absolutely, totally delighted as they watch our select little groups dive wholeheartedly into these totally unique (and undeniably odd) adventures. Most of the time they end up ‘diving in’ with us, becoming an integral part of the group on our weird little sidetracks off the tourist map, discovering new hidden treasures in their own backyards, and having as much fun as the rest of us. It’s such a joyous thing to experience, and I’ll never get tired of it.
What do you find most challenging or most exciting about researching historical women?
Katie: I love finding kindred spirits across time and across the world. Every once in a while, I’ll discover a women I instantly connect to. Even if she lived centuries ago in a completely different cultural world, I feel a profound kinship. Emilie du Chatelet, May Alcott, Zazil-Ha, Bouboulina…I found all of them through the podcast. Somehow the human story becomes my story, and vice versa–we’re all in it together.
Olivia: The answers to both these questions are kind of the same – I’m always amazed seeing how many women overcame incredible odds to accomplish the things they wanted to do! And seeing their courage and determination, and absolute refusal to give in to the obstacles and the forces trying to stop them, is never-endingly inspiring. But the flip side of that is this: it’s often incredibly disheartening to recognize so many of those exact same obstacles still working against women today, in exactly the same ways they were 100 or 700 (or 1700…) years ago. Reading about the obstacles placed in the way of a 16th century Afghani woman’s goals, then turning on the TV to see those exact same roadblocks popping up again in 2023 America can feel a bit depressing, to say the least.
But lately I find myself returning often to a quote from my favorite “hometown heroine” from my little Colorado mining town, 20th century Labor Activist (and first female Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the US!) Josephine Roche: “If you believe in something, you may have to take a beating for many years before you accomplish your goal.” Roche certainly did that, for many, many years. But after all those years of struggle, she truly did revolutionize workers’ rights in this country forever. And so (at least most days) I still really do believe: If she [all these incredible, unstoppable “Shes” of history] can do it, then so can I.
What work of women’s history have you read lately that you loved? (Or for that matter, what work of women’s history have you loved in any format? )
Olivia: There were a couple of new books this year that absolutely blew my mind – Keith O’Brien’s brilliant and infuriating Paradise Falls, on the history of the Love Canal Disaster in the 1970s, was one I’d been eagerly anticipating for months but it was even more mind-blowing (and heart-wrenching) than I’d expected, and the amount of new information he was able to dig up on one of the stories I’ve been mild-to-moderately obsessed with for 20+ years was astonishing.
Then another book which just came out last month that I absolutely loved is Carolyn Whitzman’s Clara at the Door with a Revolver. A glorious deep-dive history of a “cross-dressing, maybe-bisexual, working class, Black woman tailor” put on trial for the murder of her well-to-do white male neighbor – in 1894! Fascinating, unexpected, extremely thought-provoking and incredibly well written, this book was a wild WILD ride of the best kind. I’d lined up an interview with the (absolutely delightful) author for the podcast before I’d even finished the book, because it was so obvious that this story was going to be one we simply had to share.
What do you find most challenging or most exciting about researching historical women?
A question from Katie and Olivia: Is there any particular site/location from women’s history that you dream to see someday?
I may be the only person in the world who has this on her bucket list: The Gene Stratton Porter historic site in Indiana.
I got a copy of one of her novels when I was nine or ten. I don’t remember if I bought it myself or if it was a quirky birthday present from someone. I fell hard for the story. It remains my favorite of her books. I re-read it every year or so.
The more I learn about her, the more amazing she is. She was a best-selling novelist in the early twentieth century, an early conservation activist, and one of the first women to form a movie production company.
We have driven past the signs for the historic site several times, but we’ve never been able to stop. One of these days we’ll make it.
Want to know more about Katie Nelson and Olivia Meikle and the amazing work they do?
Listen to the podcast: https://www.whatshernamepodcast.com/
Follow them on Twitter: @WhatsHerNamePC
Follow them on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/whatshernamepodcast
Follow them on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatshernamepodcast/
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Come back tomorrow for three questions and an answer with biographer Diana Parsell
Talking About Women’s History: Three Questions and an Answer with Julia Scheeres
Julia Scheeres is the co-author with Allison Gilbert of Listen World! How the Intrepid Elsie Robinson Became America’s Most Read Woman.
Scheeres grew up in Indiana as one of six siblings that included two adopted Black brothers. .
After graduating with a B.A. in Spanish from Calvin College, she moved to Valencia, Spain, for four years, where she worked as a translator and an English teacher. Next she moved to Los Angeles, where she attended U.S.C., received an M.A. in Print Journalism, and worked for the Los Angeles Times. She also worked as a reporter for United Press International, El Financiero de Mexico, and Wired News. She quit daily journalism to write her first book, but has continued publishing in many outlets, including the New York Times, O Magazine, Elle, Narrative, Pacific Standard, Newsweek, The Guardian and more.
Her first book, a memoir, titled Jesus Land, led to the closure of the abusive reform school that she and her brother David attended as teens — which she profiled in the book. Her second book, A Thousand Lives, converted her into a Jonestown scholar. She has discussed the tragedy in dozens of documentaries, articles and podcasts. Her third book, Listen World!, is radical departure: a rollicking and inspirational biography of syndicated Hearst newspaper columnist Elsie Robinson.
In addition to writing, she teaches narrative nonfiction and memoir through Stanford Continuing Studies, works privately with clients on manuscripts, and generates content for corporate clients. She is also the founder, with her two teenage daughters, of Sustainabar, a business that makes zero-waste bars of household cleaning and beauty products.
Take it away, Julia!
Photo credit: Christopher Michael
We’re all familiar with the challenges of finding sources for writing about women from the distant past. What are the challenges of writing about women from the early and middle twentieth century?
In Elsie’s case, the lack of a personal archive – she didn’t leave her papers to an institution. Nobody was still alive who worked with her, so we couldn’t interview them for their perspective. So we had to dig through lawsuits and read between the lines of her memoir and columns to see what was happening in her interior life. She had her outward persona — which was one of swagger and bravery — but we were able to recount a more personal, private story by triangulating information, so to speak.
What inspired you to write about Elsie Robinson? How did you come across her story?
My coauthor, a former CNN producer contacted me to help her write it. She brought the research chops, I brought the writing skills. Once I started learning about Elsie’s life, I fell in love and wanted to tell her story.
My coauthor reached out to me to help her write this book at a perfect time. My first two books are rather sad. One is a memoir that ends in tragedy and the second is a narrative history of the Jonestown mass murder-suicides. I couldn’t stand working on another sad subject after my brother died of colon cancer in his mid 50s. Elsie’s story was so inspiring. The obstacles in her way as a woman at the turn of the 20th century were profound. She wrote a lot about grief. I found great wisdom in her words and great inspiration in her personal story.
What do you find most challenging or most exciting about researching historical women?
It was fun to research the condition of women in the late 1880s – 1956, when Elsie died. The bizarre Victorian courting rituals, the dearth of knowledge about female anatomy. (Girls worried they’d get pregnant if they held hands with a boy, for example). We learned about many female heroes along the way, including Ida Craddock, who was prosecuted and jailed for writing tracts about women’s sexual response in the 1910’s — for example, how men could please, and not rape, their wives on their wedding night. About Alice B. Stockham, the fifth American woman to get an M.D., who wrote Tokology: A Book for Every Woman which offered women much-needed practical advice about pregnancy and childbirth. About Clelia Moser, a Stanford physician who conducted a groundbreaking survey in the late 1890s confirming that women enjoyed sex just as much as men.
Question from Julia: How do you define women’s history?
At its most basic, women’s history is the act of putting women back into the historical narrative, whether that means shining a light on the story of individual women or looking at the lives and accomplishments of groups of women. Because we were there, y’all. We were there.
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Want to know more about Julia Scheeres and her work?
Check out her website: https://www.juliascheeres.com/
Follow her on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JuliaScheeres
Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jkscheeres/
Read an excerpt from Listen, World!: https://msmagazine.com/2023/03/16/elsie-robinson/
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Come back tomorrow for three answers (or six, depending how you count) and a question with Olivia Meikle and Katie Nelson, two of my favorite women’s history co-conspirators
Belva Lockwood: a guest post by Jack French
Once or twice a year, long-time friend of the Margins Jack French reaches out with an interesting story and an offer to share. I’ve learned to say yes. Whether it’s the woman who invented Monopoly, a pair of WASP pilots, or a book recommendation, it’s always worth reading, and it’s often appropriate for Women’s History Month. He’s back, with another story of a woman I hadn’t heard of before. (I can’t tell you more without spoilers.)
Take it away, Jack!
Photo by Matthew Brady, courtesy of the Library of Congress
Belva Ann Bennett was born October 24, 1830 into a modest farm family in Royalton, NY. Her parents apparently had a penchant for quirky names as two of Belva’s four siblings were named Cyrene and Inverno. In that pre-Civil War era, women were barred from nearly all professions (medicine, law, dentistry, banking, federal employment, etc.) but Belva would rise from her humble beginnings to become the first woman lawyer to argue in the Supreme Court and also the first woman to legitimately run for U.S. president….twice!
Despite her ambitions as a teenager, Belva was virtually limited to three options: domestic service, teaching, or getting married. She originally chose the latter two. At age 14 she accepted a teaching position, where she resented being paid half of what her male counterparts received for doing the identical work. In 1848 she married Uriah McNall, four years her senior.
The couple were farmers and also ran a small mill. They had one daughter before her husband died of injuries from a mill accident. The young widow sold the mill, and now, convinced that education would improve her lot, enrolled in college in Lima, NY, graduating in 1857. However she then had difficulty in finding a suitable position and was forced to accept a teaching job, again at half the salary of male teachers.
Later she became acquainted with both Susan B. Anthony and Dr. Mary Walker, and Belva would remain a champion of women’s rights as long as she lived. Anthony convinced her to move to Washington, DC for better prospects. By then Belva had aspirations of becoming a lawyer. In the Nation’s Capital, she met and married Ezekiel Lockwood in 1868. A 65 year old dentist, he was four years older than her father. But he was a loving husband and fully supported her quest for a law career. They resided in D.C. and operated a rental agency.
After being turned down at several East Coast law schools because of her gender, Belva fortunately found a new law school locally which admitted women on a limited basis: the National Law University in D.C. (which years later would merge into George Washington University.) In early 1871, National Law University accepted 15 women as students, but only two of them would eventually graduate: Lydia Hall and Belva Lockwood. However the institution refused to award them their diplomas.
Both successfully passed the three day exam (oral and written) for the D.C. bar, but since they had no diplomas, they were not admitted. Belva boldly wrote a personal letter to President Ulysses Grant, who was the honorary president of the university, requesting her diploma be released to her. It worked. Two weeks later her law diploma was in her hands and she was admitted to the D.C. bar on September 24, 1873, the second woman to achieve that distinction. The first was Charlotte Ray, the daughter of a nationally prominent African-American minister and publisher. She was admitted to the D.C. bar in 1872, shortly after graduating from Howard University Law School. However so few people would engage a woman of color as their attorney, Ray had to give up her practice and become a teacher.
Lockwood was moderately successful in her law practice, but some of her cases required argument in the Court of Claims, which had a separate bar. It would take Belva years of struggle to achieve that goal. Although she succeeded in getting a hearing to the bar of Court of Claims, it was a painful experience. After a lengthy discussion before a panel of five judges, she was told by the presiding judge: “Mistress Lockwood, you are a woman!” Later Belva would write: “For the first time in my life I began to realize that it was a crime to be a woman, but it was too late to put in a denial and I at once pleaded guilty to the charge.”
After weeks of deliberation the bar association concluded “A woman is without legal capacity to take the office of attorney” and therefore her request for admission was denied. However Belva was not to be stopped. She poured over the Supreme Court’s rulings on such matters, one of which concluded that any attorney in good standing before the highest court of State or Territory for three years shall be admitted to that court when presented by a member of the bar. But when the three years were up for her, she was still denied bar admission unless there was legislation for such approval. During this time, Ezekiel died in April 1877, leaving her a widow again.
But Belva then became a lobbyist in her own behalf. She located friendly faces in Congress, gave speeches, found allies in the press, and uncovered weak spots in her opposition. Her two year relentless campaign was successful. The bill admitting women to the Supreme Court bar was signed into law on February 7, 1879. Three weeks later, she became the first woman to be admitted to the bar of the Supreme Court.
Her astonishing victory opened the legal doors to all women in local, state, territory, and federal courts. Elizabeth Cady Stanton extolled her triumph, dubbing her a true “Portia”, Shakespeare’s brilliant lady lawyer. Her legal business continued to thrive. Very late in life she would be on the team whose arguments in the Supreme Court resulted in a multi-million dollar award for the Cherokee Nation.
In 1884 she consented to be the Presidential nominee for the Equal Rights Party, thus becoming the first woman to run for that office. “I can’t vote, but you can vote for me” was one of her slogans. Some of the press treated her fairly but others preferred lampooning her in cartons. She lost to Grover Cleveland, but four years later she ran again, this time defeated by Benjamin Harrison.
She continued her legal practice and pushed for women’s suffrage until she died at the age of 86 in 1917, just three years short of being able to vote. Sadly, the history books have ignored her, despite her impressive accomplishments. As her biographer, Jill Norgren, explains, there is “…a preference in history for Founding Fathers and fighting generals…”
PRIMARY SOURCES:
Belva Lockwood: The Woman Who Would be President by Jill Norgren, (New York University Press, 2007)
“Struggles and Accomplishments of Belva Lockwood” (2011) by Maryann Freedman, https://buffaloah.com/h/lock/lock.html
Jack French is a researcher, feminist, and author in Northern Virginia; his website is: http://www.jackfrenchlectures.com/ His book, Private Eyelashes: Radio’s Lady Detectives (Bear Manor Media, 2004) won the Agatha Award for Best Non-Fiction and was voiced as a Talking Book by the Library of Congress.
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Women’s History Month isn’t over yet! Come back on Monday for Three Questions and an answer with Julia Scheeres, co-author of Listen, World!